Why Jeph Loeb always loses
I've been thinking a lot about the state of comics, and where did all the "fun" comics go, and are DC's "All Star" books really the answer, and on and on and blah dee blah. Now the thought of Grant Morrison doing Superman is a good, happy thought. But I remember in the article where it was announced Jim Lee said something about how the "All Star" line was going back to basics, and giving new readers stuff they expected when they thought of Batman, like the giant penny in the Batcave, and I remember thinking "Really? The giant penny in the Batcave's been the answer all along?" So I had a typical Jeff knee-jerk reaction where I was thinking "You idiots! Undoing Crisis isn't the way to go! Giving new readers the Batman they remember from the Adam West series is doing both them and the industry a huge disservice. Just because most people perceive comics as juvenile, goofy kid's stuff is no reason to pander to that perception! That's just the sort of perception comics should be actively rallying against! Argh! Jeff smash!" and so on. Then I remembered that Grant Morrison's Superman will be a rockin' good time no matter what he throws in, be it Supergirl or the bottle city of Kandor, and maybe I should just relax. In the right hands, ideas that seem silly or dated can become fantastic, and never moreso than in the hands of Grant Morrison. So I took a chill pill and now await his All-Star Superman with baited breath, while pretty much expecting nothing from All-Star Batman and Robin.
This though process led me to think about separate universes (a la the Ultimate line) and what a great freakin' idea they are. Imagine if Superman/Batman took place in a different continuity, one that was more kid-friendly (or aging-comic-fan friendly, if you will). It could still be a fun, goofy lark, without completely ruining literally years of build-up to Batman and Superman taking down President Luthor in a way that wasn't directly insulting to intelligent readers everywhere! Why not? That way everyone's happy!
Then the other day I was reading Paul's copy of Wizard's Year End issue, and in it they have a four-way interview with Geoff Johns, Jeph Loeb, Brian Bendis, and Mark Millar, discussing Marvel and DC. Bendis was talking about how technically DC did the first "Ultimate" books with the post-Crisis takes on Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman et al. And they brought up the possibility of an "Ultimate" DC these days (this was put out before the official announcement, natch) and Geoff Johns was for the idea, provided the creators were right, because he felt a seperate line that was more iconic, and got to the core of the characters would be a swell idea. And he's right, because Geoff Johns understands these things. Then Jeph Loeb jumps in and says he doesn't think it's a good idea. He said "Why not just do it in the book? You have an idea you want to do, just do it in the regular book." And that just cuts right to the heart of what's wrong with a lot of Jeph Loeb's stuff, doesn't it? Why create a new continuity where Supergirl could be around when you could just do it in the regular book, basically undoing one of the smartest decisions DC ever made? You don't like Crisis? Just undo it in the book. Yuck. Anyway, the big kicker to his comments was this. He said "As a fanboy, the one question you have is 'When is the Ultimate universe going to cross over with the Marvel universe?' You can't say it's not going to happen, because it's going to happen." That, for him, is the biggest concert with the creation of an Ultimate line. And seriously, in all honesty, the thought of those two continuities crossing over never, ever once occurred to me. Not even as a "Whoa, wouldn't it be stupid if..." kind of thing. Because it's a dumb idea. It is possibly the dumbest idea in the world. Bendis' response to "because it's going to happen": "It's not going to happen." Because it would be DUMB. What story value would there be to that idea at all? It would just be like the characters meeting alternate-reality counterparts like they do all the time (in the regular Marvel U, that is. Ultimate has thus avoided that). That storyline would do nothing but sully the Ultimate line with gross 70's-Marvel-Team-Up-esque cooties. Does that make any sense? This whole post is just off the top of my head, here. Excuse me for going on a bit of a tear. It's just that sort of myopic "the Ultimate universe was a bad idea" thinking that just drives me up the wall. Your audience is not dumb, guys. They can pick their preferred continuity and understand the differences. Because your audience is all off reading manga and doing exactly that, only with like 50 different continuities.
Anyway, if I had my way I would totally give Jeph Loeb his own DC continuity to play in. Geoff Johns could run the regular DCU, and Grant Morrison could do whatever he felt like doing at the time. He could write ten different Superman books in ten differenct continuities and I'd still read the damn things.
And if I'm going to prattle on about magical wish-fulfillment, let me just say that in my perfect world, Marvel starts yet another continuity, and they let me write the X-Men title, and it's a specifically finite series, and none of the other Marvel characters are in it, because they just muck up the X-world anyway. And it would the GREATEST COMIC EVER MADE. Uh, and John Cassady would draw it.
PS - In that Wizard issue they also listed what they thought the ten dumbest moments in comics were in 2004, and two of the moments were from Superman/Batman. And get this, they were the climaxes from each of the two storylines that that comic has had thus far! The text was like "Hey, we love Superman/Batman, but..." Uh, guys, when the book's only had two story arcs, and you think the climaxes of each of those story arcs were two of the dumbest moments in comics in 2004, then maybe you should make yourself take a long, hard, look at the book and how you feel about it.
Wow, this post was LONG. Sorry, folks. This is what happens when I think about something long enough and just start typing at one in the morning.
This though process led me to think about separate universes (a la the Ultimate line) and what a great freakin' idea they are. Imagine if Superman/Batman took place in a different continuity, one that was more kid-friendly (or aging-comic-fan friendly, if you will). It could still be a fun, goofy lark, without completely ruining literally years of build-up to Batman and Superman taking down President Luthor in a way that wasn't directly insulting to intelligent readers everywhere! Why not? That way everyone's happy!
Then the other day I was reading Paul's copy of Wizard's Year End issue, and in it they have a four-way interview with Geoff Johns, Jeph Loeb, Brian Bendis, and Mark Millar, discussing Marvel and DC. Bendis was talking about how technically DC did the first "Ultimate" books with the post-Crisis takes on Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman et al. And they brought up the possibility of an "Ultimate" DC these days (this was put out before the official announcement, natch) and Geoff Johns was for the idea, provided the creators were right, because he felt a seperate line that was more iconic, and got to the core of the characters would be a swell idea. And he's right, because Geoff Johns understands these things. Then Jeph Loeb jumps in and says he doesn't think it's a good idea. He said "Why not just do it in the book? You have an idea you want to do, just do it in the regular book." And that just cuts right to the heart of what's wrong with a lot of Jeph Loeb's stuff, doesn't it? Why create a new continuity where Supergirl could be around when you could just do it in the regular book, basically undoing one of the smartest decisions DC ever made? You don't like Crisis? Just undo it in the book. Yuck. Anyway, the big kicker to his comments was this. He said "As a fanboy, the one question you have is 'When is the Ultimate universe going to cross over with the Marvel universe?' You can't say it's not going to happen, because it's going to happen." That, for him, is the biggest concert with the creation of an Ultimate line. And seriously, in all honesty, the thought of those two continuities crossing over never, ever once occurred to me. Not even as a "Whoa, wouldn't it be stupid if..." kind of thing. Because it's a dumb idea. It is possibly the dumbest idea in the world. Bendis' response to "because it's going to happen": "It's not going to happen." Because it would be DUMB. What story value would there be to that idea at all? It would just be like the characters meeting alternate-reality counterparts like they do all the time (in the regular Marvel U, that is. Ultimate has thus avoided that). That storyline would do nothing but sully the Ultimate line with gross 70's-Marvel-Team-Up-esque cooties. Does that make any sense? This whole post is just off the top of my head, here. Excuse me for going on a bit of a tear. It's just that sort of myopic "the Ultimate universe was a bad idea" thinking that just drives me up the wall. Your audience is not dumb, guys. They can pick their preferred continuity and understand the differences. Because your audience is all off reading manga and doing exactly that, only with like 50 different continuities.
Anyway, if I had my way I would totally give Jeph Loeb his own DC continuity to play in. Geoff Johns could run the regular DCU, and Grant Morrison could do whatever he felt like doing at the time. He could write ten different Superman books in ten differenct continuities and I'd still read the damn things.
And if I'm going to prattle on about magical wish-fulfillment, let me just say that in my perfect world, Marvel starts yet another continuity, and they let me write the X-Men title, and it's a specifically finite series, and none of the other Marvel characters are in it, because they just muck up the X-world anyway. And it would the GREATEST COMIC EVER MADE. Uh, and John Cassady would draw it.
PS - In that Wizard issue they also listed what they thought the ten dumbest moments in comics were in 2004, and two of the moments were from Superman/Batman. And get this, they were the climaxes from each of the two storylines that that comic has had thus far! The text was like "Hey, we love Superman/Batman, but..." Uh, guys, when the book's only had two story arcs, and you think the climaxes of each of those story arcs were two of the dumbest moments in comics in 2004, then maybe you should make yourself take a long, hard, look at the book and how you feel about it.
Wow, this post was LONG. Sorry, folks. This is what happens when I think about something long enough and just start typing at one in the morning.
posted by Jeff at 11:40 PM
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